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Subscribe to RSSAccess to college has been the driving force in federal higher education policy for decades. But the Obama administration is pushing a fundamental agenda shift that aggressively brings a new question into the debate: What are people getting for their money?
Students with loans are graduating on average with more than $25,000 in debt. The federal government pours $140 billion annually into federal grants and loans. Unemployment remains high, yet there are projected shortages in many industries with some high-tech companies already complaining about a lack of highly trained workers.
Meanwhile, literacy among college students has declined in the last decade, according to a commission convened during the George W. Bush administration that said American higher education has become "increasingly risk-averse, at times self-satisfied, and unduly expensive." About 40 percent of college students at four-year schools aren't graduating, and in two-year programs, only about 40 percent of students graduate or transfer, according to the policy and analysis group College Measures.
College drop-outs are expensive, and not just for the individual. About a fifth of full-time students who enroll at a community college do not return for a second year, costing taxpayers hundreds of millions of dollars annually, according to an analysis released last fall by the American Institutes for Research.
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There's been a growing debate over whether post-secondary schools should be more transparent about the cost of an education and the success of graduates. President Barack Obama has weighed in with a strong "yes."
During his State of the Union address, Obama put the higher education on notice: "If you can't stop tuition from going up, the funding you get from taxpayers will go down," he said. "Higher education can't be a luxury— it's an economic imperative that every family in America should be able to afford."
He wants to slightly reduce federal aid for schools that don't control tuition costs and shift it to those that do. He also has proposed an $8 billion program to train community college students for high-growth industries that would provide financial incentives to programs that ensured their trainees find work. Both proposals need congressional approval.
At the same time, the administration is developing both a "scorecard" for use in comparing school statistics such as graduation rates as well as a "shopping sheet" students would receive from schools they applied to with estimates of how much debt they might graduate with and estimated future payments on student loans.
American's higher education system has long been the backbone of much of the nation's success, and there's no doubt that a college degree is valuable. It's now projected that students with a bachelor's degree will earn a million more dollars over their lifetime than students with only a high school diploma, Education Secretary Arne Duncan says.
But Obama's statement to Congress jolted the higher education establishment, which believes that college isn't just to create foot soldiers for industry and that the use of measured outcomes would hurt the humanities, meaning fewer students will turn to Shakespeare and instead study engineering, said Anthony Carnevale, director of the Center on Education and the Workforce at Georgetown University. The community has already been reeling over an earlier administration decision to require career college programs — many of which are at for-profit institutions — to better prepare students for "gainful employment" or risk losing federal aid.
"It's the notion that the ...federal government will begin to say we want to know what we're paying for and we want to make sure that people don't pay for education programs that take them nowhere, especially if the program is supposed to get them a job, we want it to get them a job, Carnevale said.
Some fear that Obama might want to apply the "gainful employment" standards to traditional four-year degree programs. Robert Moran, director of federal relations at the American Association of State Colleges and Universities, said reporting requires time and resources, and it's even more difficult to gauge the success of a graduate with an English degree than someone with a very specific career certificate.
Duncan said in an interview he doesn't see a big need to go in that direction now, although he does think it's important to track factors such as graduation rates and tuition costs. He said he tracked his graduates while serving as chief executive officer of the Chicago Public Schools and noticed that some universities were graduating them at rates of 75 percent or more, while others were graduating them at a small fraction of that.
"Colleges aren't too dissimilar to high schools. Some have done a great job building cultures around completion and obtainment and some haven't," Duncan said.
Historically, policy conversations have centered on getting students into college. Duncan said graduating is just as important.
"To be real clear, I think that's been the problem with federal policy in the past is 100 percent has been focused on the front end on inputs, that's clearly important, but that's the starting point. That gets you in the game. The goal isn't to get to the game, the goal is to get to the finish line," Duncan said.
Obama isn't the first president to encourage dialogue on making higher education more affordable and accountable. In addition to convening a commission to study higher education in America, Bush's administration issued grants to states to link transcript data with other records to better track the success of graduates from public institutions. The Obama administration has continued the program.
But Obama is taking the conversation to another level. That doesn't mean, however, he's abandoning the issue of accessibility. His administration has expanded the availability of Pell grants, supported a tax credit for tuition costs and is attempting to make it easier for some graduates to pay back loans.
Experts say some of the challenges in higher education result from too many students entering the doors without basic math and English skills. There's also the question of how to measure how effective colleges are and whether tuition increases are appropriate — especially for public institutions facing dramatic budget cuts.
Rep. Virginia Foxx, R-N.C., the former president of Mayland Community College, said the issues raised by Obama are being addressed at the state and local level, where she said they should be handled, and that many schools are coming up with innovative ways to cut costs and to find ways to work with local industry. As an example, she recalled developing, while a community college president, a course in supervisory training after local industry sought it.
"All of these things the president talks about can be done at the local and state level, and are being done at the local and state level," Foxx said. "It isn't the role of government to guarantee somebody a good job after they graduate from college or community college."
Sen. Ron Wyden, D-Ore., takes a different view.
"Right now, the information about the potential of various careers, the track records of colleges and the like is essentially strewn all over the countryside," said Wyden, who authored a bill on making college costs more transparent.
He added, "I think students and their parents are now saying in addition to accessibility, we want to wring the maximum value out of every dollar we're spending on education."
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So instead of just waffling he is definitely against it now.
Obama is simply trying to distract the public from the real issues of the day: massive federal debt, high unemployment, stagnant economy, high gasoline prices, lack of security over the U.S./Mexican border and unilateral nuclear disarmament proposals at a time when Iran is a growing threat.
But hey, what the heck, let's talk about something vague and idealistic to turn the conversation elsewhere.
10,000 for one year of school to start, I would call that higher education whats wrong with that guy..
Jim, economy is on the mend, massive federal debt was caused by Bush as much as caused by Obama (actuallly more so if you think about what Obama had to do to stop the bleeding).
Lack of security on the border???? what kind of security are you talking about? I grew up on the border in El Paso. There has never been more security. Are you wanting to build another great wall or something? Man, you sound more paranoid than a drug addict.
Unilateral nuclear disarmamament is a bad thing, right? what are you smoking? I don't mind blowing up Iran if they have nukes, dont get me wrong... but what you are saying is we as americans have a right to have nukes while others do not. That, in my opinion, is why we are hated so badly. The arrogance in saying we can use nuclear technology responsably while other countries cannot is ludicrous when you think about the fact that we are the only ones that have used the technology to kill people. If you do not think that the atomic bomb counts.... then how about depleted uranium rounds? that has Iraq littered with radiation contamination.
I cant stand it when ignorant responses are given to global problems and you sir, just did so. Do your homework.
Devon
Are you saying you are entitled to your opinion but Jim is not?
Devon has no argument. If you read closely, he even contradicts himself while desperately trying to sound superior. It's part of the ugly liberal mantra..... We are smarter than you. So, if you don't agree with US ... well then, hrrmph you must be uneducated, or uninformed or the product of inbreeding, or, or......... (insert here whatever other attempted putdown you can muster).
Unilateral disarmament IS, indeed, a bad thing. Common sense would tell you that, but then again, you have your self-appointed superiority complex and would eschew anything "common" ..... because you consider yourself "superior".
Also, it would appear you are oblivious to the present-day drug-cartel murders and violence south of the border which sometimes spills over "north of the border"
Today, in honor of Black History month, Obama announced the formation of "African-Americans for Obama".
There you go, the guy that said he was going to unite America. What a joke. He is further dividing America. Give him another Pinocchio.
What if Romney, came out and said he was forming White Americans for Romney. There would be a revolt by blacks, saying "that's racist".
Why is there such a double standard?
Please vote Obama out in 2012. His goal is to tear this country apart with class warfare, and he is doing just that, with the ultimate goal of a more socialist or, better yet for him, a communist system.
College costs are going up due to a huge increase in the number of administrators, the salaries of said administrators, spending on athletic facilities, gourmet meal programs and luxury dorms with flat screen tvs and exercise areas that rival a health club.
The number of professors has not increased. The amount of "face time" a student can expect to receive with a college professor has decreased. To attempt to save money, adjunct professors and guest lecturers are utilized. These folks are basically paid slave wages with no benefits.
College costs skyrocket, but the amount spent on the part where the actual learning takes place has been reduced, particularly as a percentage of the overall cost of college.
This is not a GOP or democrat issue. This is an issue of parents and students continuing to blindly pay more and more for a product ( Yes, education is a product) that gets more inferior each year. Every year about this time, we are deluged with college rankings and stories of kids applying to 15 colleges. For upper middle class suburban families, the college chase has taken on ridiculous proportions. These families do not grasp that the emperor has no clothes. Many college graduates today are not prepared for the workforce despite a 6 figure investment in college.
Back in the dark days of the mid 1970s, most middle class parents did not have much money. The kids applied to a state school or two. Only the richest kids even dared apply to private schools. Financial Aid was only enough to help out with a state school. Our dorms were cinder block with tile floors. Community baths. The only exercise was walking to class.
Now, thanks to media hype and boomers parents with too much money, the entire experience is about impressing your neighbors and friends and not about price/ value. The easy availability of student loans makes the housing bubble look like sober lending. These kids and their parents have no idea what they are signing up for. The loans allow billions to flow to bloated universities. Slow down the Loans, the cost increases will also slow down.
Parents and students must revolt. Boycott Private Schools. Watch the tuition drop. Spend freshman and sophomore years at your local Community college ( horror of horrors!!) . Watch the State U tuition come down. Don't take out loans unless there is literally no other way. Remember the money must be paid back.
I know a woman who teaches a course in remedial math (how to add, multiply and count your change at the register) to college freshmen. What we need to do is improve the education kids get in high school; reject admission of kids (no matter what their ethnicity) from entry to college and increase and improve our trade schools which are presently not turning out enough students to meet the demands of industry. BTW: We should also start severely fining colleges and universities that blatantly lie to prospective students about the incomes being received by their average graduates.
Jim, I work for a company that has facilities on both sides of the Mexican border. On either side one can see the cost of the violence. A few months back in Reynosa/McCallen and had a Mexican army Humvee with a 50Cal train on me riding down the main street in Reynosa. Very unsettling.
jolly: I hope the company is paying you combat rates for the work S. of the Rio Grande.
You couldn't pay me enough to even visit Mexico. I have a friend who has relatives in SE Mexico, even she said she won't be going back. She said its worse than the toughest ghettos in the US. Its like the lawless west in the 19th Century.
Colleges are running a big scam. The fact that someone majoring in philosophy, sociology, poli-sci or drama can rack up anywhere between $30,000 and $100,000 in tuition debt for a bachelors is just ludicrous.
Colleges can only charge that much for such majors because they know that the government is going to subsidize it. These majors are the bread and butter of colleges across the nation! The teachers that teach them are largely unemployable in any other capacity, therefore command a lower pay grade than teachers in marketable professions like business, law, engineering and the sciences.
First things first, FOLLOW THE MONEY! Change how it flows and watch these businesses change their behavior.
Step 1: Raise the amount of government subsidies for college tuition
Step 2: Limit the maximum amount to loan in subsidized loans to no more than 1.5x the median gross annual pay for the entry-level position(s) the majority of that major feeds into (e.g. if an entry level engineer makes 55K a year, they can be subsidized up to $82.5K in tuition; if a drama major makes minimum wage after graduation working part time, they can have subsidies up to $12.75K). No matter what, the graduates are only going to have loans that they can feasibly pay off...the private sector can then be the ones to decide if they want to risk lending more.
Step 3: Enable public colleges receive increased government support on tiered levels based on the rate of graduates that successfully attain a high-growth-potential position in their field of study within 1.5 years of graduation and maintain it for 3 years. This is to prevent colleges from simply being diploma-mills and actually focus on getting students into work and selecting students for drive and ambition and not simply for a pulse and parents with liquidity.
Step 2.5: Add a pre-requisite major clause to the loans so that undergraduate majors that tie into more lucrative masters and doctoral programs aren't unfairly discriminated against like:
History/Philosophy/Poli-Sci/English → Law school, Doctoral programs, etc
Physics/Chemistry/Biology → Doctoral programs, Medical school, etc
However, switching majors to a less-lucrative profession in mid-stream will also change how much the student can qualify for in loans and may require that the student immediately start paying back their loans if they either switch majors or don't manage to get into the graudate programs that turn that bachelors into a more marketable degree.
Hussein made it to the Presidency and he doesn't have an MA in anything...is "higher education" what he is cracking it up to be?...doesn't sound like it
I say we ought to focus government aid more on industrial and engineering degrees. Not that the humanities are unimportant, but I think that we ought to focus a bit more on areas that need help, like engineering. Turning out 70,000 engineers a year is not enough to encourage domestic employment. We ought to make a goal to have 150,000 graduating a year; that would give Apple the opportunity to invest in domestic production.
OBAMA BIDEN 2012
Freshieee...we do need more technical degrees. U.S. companies are currently importing those with technical degrees because there are not enough graduates from here. There is actually an oversupply of nontechnical college degrees. Many positions now held by college graduates were formerly held by high school graduates simply because of the oversupply.
Well that makes a world of sense. Let's take money away from schools that are raising tuition costs to try to address financial problems and give that money to schools that don't need it.
It sounds to me like the usual reverse-Robin-Hood philosophy of the GOP: rob from the poor to give to the rich.
The problem is not that we aren't turning out enough highly educated people. Actually, there are far more people with doctoral degrees than there are stable jobs for them. If we really want to do something for higher education, we need to do something to make sure that there are JOBS available for highly educated people.
Of COURSE people are going to drop out of college when they realize just how little our society rewards education.
Education is really just like anything else. People will work hard if -- and only if -- they believe that their hard work will be rewarded. I have a doctorate in a field directly relevant to medical research. What am I supposed to say to a young person that wants a career in medical research? "Yep! If you spend 9 years in college earning a PhD, at times working 80-100 hours a week, you can be just like me someday! Ten years after earning your doctorate you too can be a middle aged man that still doesn't make $50,000 a year and must move his wife and children to another state every 3 or 4 years when the NIH grant money runs out! YEEEEHHAAAA!"
Why was Alan290"s comment at 1.6 collapsed? The man expressed his legitimate opinion. I heard a lot worse from liberal Obama supporters -- but I have never tried to deny the forum to them. I thought freedom of speech was a liberal concept as well as a conservative one. I guess I was wrong.
For the same reason my comment at #1.1 was collapsed ...... "liberals" are open to ideas, but only if they agree with their own ideas ! LOL !! It's even funnier when they call themselves "Progressives".
The idea that every child should have a college education is just unrealistic. Not every child is suited to College or Unversity level curriculum. If a kid struggles through High School in core cources then to expect them to stay in College is a waste of resources.To direct them to for profit trade schools can be a reasonable choice but those schools need to charge based on the industries these kids are training for...not charge the same as a traditional four year degree. Because average salary and payback will not be the same.
If we have just a bit of faith in these kids we will see they will rise to their own abillity. It is time that we let them without taking a big financial hit.
The fed needs to stop their gravy train and let Colleges and Universities get back to what they used to be with standards and expectations andn providing value for their tuition.
When kids are geared to barely skate by in High School they are going to crash in College.
If the Federal Government must be involved then perhaps they could provide educational and professional counceling for those students with federal grants and loans who are floundering in their freshmen year. it serves the students, lender and taxpayers for someone to be a vioce of reason to these indoviduals and guide them to their best future.
It would also serve a reasonable end if companies like Microsoft and Apple and other companies that manufacture abroad to bring their manufacturing back to America and afford American employees the opportunity to earn and perhaps further their education while doing a labor job. It would certainly give these tech companies a base of employees that they can choose from to become programmers, designers and technicians.
As an example: Gates needs to alter his companies Mission Statement and place his companies money where his mouth is and take some responsibility for his staffing. He has certainly been one of those loud voices complaiining that the US is not providing a viable work force. Perhaps he can start building his future brain trust from a base of employees working from the ground up. The best place to identify and grow tallent is from your own base. If his base is in China building computers then he is going to be identifying and promoting Foreign tallent. Many of our great minds in America came from meger beginnings and were identified and groomed because a company saw their potential and developed them to have skills and tallents for long term growth.
The American Dream of being able to meet your own potential took a noese dive when businesses were forced over seas. Without early earning opportunity to afford education we are loosing an entire generation of potential.
Companies are importing technical degreed people because they can get a cut-rate from the countries they're hiring from.
It's not that there is an actual shortage in the US, it's that the talent has shifted to the financial and service industries because the US has spent the last 20 years killing technical jobs and sending them overseas for pennies on the dollar, the chilling effect has caused a drop in the pay for these fields domestically. The lack of expertise in these fields is directly correlated to the fact that American students majoring in these fields will have to compete with someone that will work for a wage that is not remotely equivalent to the value-add of that work domestically, nor is it justifiable at the cost of living nor the cost to get the education to specialize in it in the first place.
I originally majored in engineering in college right up until I got a better look at how my engineer-family members were being treated at their places of work.
As an engineer in a large company, you're treated like a highly educated temp. Your project is over? Have a nice day...don't call us, we'll call you!
After watching the engineers in my family get dumped on over the years, I learned that nothing is guaranteed, companies have no loyalty to their employees, so demand from them as much as you can get, and I switched to finance because if I'm going to be treated as expendable, I'm going to earn 3x as much and have 5x more employment opportunities.
It doesn't pay to specialize anymore. I'm a quant, I'm a tech geek, I've got a strong acumen in finance and economics and I can take my trade anywhere and I know I'm always more appreciated at my NEXT job. There are many others like me and we hold American business suspect and our employers as hostile...look no further than the aggregate change in worker demands by generation. Gen Y demands more than the Boomers and X'ers by significant margins and the change is exponential by level of qualifications.
We were raised watching our parents get laid off and their jobs outsourced, pensions go chronically underfunded and executives taking off with bonuses while their company falters. The illusion that companies will take care of their employees died with the WWII generation.
If all I get is a 401K and a bonus, I'm giving you 5 years of my time while I look for work at a place that pays more.
Loyalty is for the immobile and naive. Enjoy your dinner Corporate America
Jim,
People should be educated on a subject before deciding to comment. As an expert in this subject I can say that the president is targeting something very real. Many Universities and colleges misuse the system to their advantage. If you want meaningful cuts that are productive this is a subject to be examine.
Devon@1.3. You ought to watch other than MSN. If so, you'd know that yesterday a woman pushing a baby stroller in El Paso was hit by a bullet from the Mexico side. Obama et al keep telling their fairy tales of how safe it is. BS. If it's so safe, why doesn't Obama and Napalatano go camp out there in a tent, with no protection or weapons and see how it goes!
Stupid, stupid, stupid. For years, the experts have been saying that we would become basically a two-tiered society: technical and service workers. and guess what? They were right; it's here. I believe that any education you get is a positive, broadens your world view. But, a degree is not and has never been a ticket to get a job. And, to keep throwing money at four year degrees in a changed job market is irresponsible. Why do you think they are so many with degrees now that can't get a job in their field? If i had a child at that age now, I'd tell them to go to a trade school.
And compete for work with illegal aliens?
The middle class is getting some serious dutch-door action both from the white and blue collar industries.
Politicians don't want to take care of it. I guess being a plumber, mechanic, electrician or working in non-union construction are jobs that Americans just won't do.
But I agree with your point. I think that a lot of parents don't understand that it isn't enough to just send their kid to college. They have to make sure that the child is first, majoring in something that they will excel in, secondly that they are getting such a degree from a top-brand university (brand is important because HR can't see past it), and lastly and most importantly is that the degree can operate in a growing industry and has a high level of marketability and versatility. Specializing runs the risk of being run out of work, or becoming obsolete because the job one is at currently doesn't keep their workers fresh on new developments and continuing education.
For example, a number of friends of mine are software engineers. About half of them had great jobs working at a TV network. However, TV networks are notorious for using REALLY OLD and outdated software and systems (hence why many have talent on-sight to make workarounds). Unfortunately, my friends were so busy working on these old systems and specializing in outdated languages to find much time to educate themselves on the newer ones, they were in really dire straights when the company went through a round of layoffs and outsourced their IT Infrastructure and recapitalized onto new systems.
Now they are out of work and playing catchup to get back up to speed on the new languages of the last 15 years.
My advice for anyone going into college today. Pick a major that gives you the option of working in multiple industries, from growth to matured. Make sure that it is something that allows you to work across departments and support a number of different types of business functions. AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, if you have the entrepreneurial drive or things just get really ugly, you can take your skills and work independently.
Obama is now grabbing for more power to determine which schools get more federal money and which get less. This will allow politics into play. He has already had the federal government take over student loans under Obamacare, and student loans have absolutely nothing to do with health care.
While you are at it Mr. Obama, please release to the public ALL your college records so the U.S. voting public can see which courses you chose to study and how you did. Perhaps, there may be some hidden revelations that would determine your qualifications for President ..... or lack thereof ! Be "transparent" with YOUR records, Mr. President.
Still hitting the pipe I see Jim... I love to hear your "take over the colleges" conspiracy theory.. how exactly does that work out for a President exactly? Paranoya self destroya dude, seriously.
Devon-2883125
I'm not sure where you took your quote from Jim's posting, but Obama did have the federal government take over the student loan program. Obama's own statements says he will dole out federal funds only to those institutions that follow his new rules - Sounds like he is picking and choosing to me...
If Obama puts himself in the power position of deciding which colleges get more and which get less dude (put down the bong and READ THE ARTICLE, "dude"), then there will surely be more winners in Democratic "blue" states than there are in "red" states.
You are losing the argument Devvie !
Jim 14 whatever...
Did you ask for college transcripts for George W. Bush before voting for him? Or for those of Sarah Palin, Rick Perry, Donald Trump, Rick Santorum, or any of the other wannabees that at any given time have captured the imagination of folks on your side? Did you know that John McCain graduated near the bottom of his Naval Academy class? Do you know how hard it is to get into Harvard, let alone graduate from their Law School? Do you know what graduating "Cum Laude" means? Let me help you, it means with honors. It is a special recognition for students who graduate at the top of their class; no dummies need apply. Of course, you'r certain he can't be all that smart, right? And it's certainly not because he's black, right?
CAL USA,
You conveniently ignore the obvious. Knowing his grades is secondary in importance to knowing what courses he chose to pursue. Since Obama has proven to be such an absurdity with his "budget" proposals, I would like to see if he ever had a course in basic Accounting 101.
Furthermore, if he graduated "Cum Laude" from Harvard, why would the President not be proud to show his grades ? Wouldn't he like to show us ALL his other grades also ? Why is this all kept from public view if it is so wonderful as you claim ?? What did he study ?? Did he make any false representations on his application ?
By the way genius, Ms. Palin is not running for President and never has, has she ???
jim: I'll take a wild guess, but I imagine that he studied LAW at Harvard LAW School. Of course, I'm not stupid, so I don't vote for Republicans either.
What? It was the birth certificate first, now the transcripts from school? Jim, what else you want him to show? The toilet paper showing that wiped his but* when he went for a dump?
Accounting has little to nothing to do with budgeting.
which goes hand in iron fist with the take over of the student loan program that was attached to the healthcare scam and ponzi scheme... with the removal of banks from the process , the money comes straight from the gubment and as we all know , they then have the power to dictate what is done with it , what education is taken with it , and how it will be paid back...I can see it now , "we don't have any money for the business degree that you are seeking , but we have plenty for medical school , as we are short 100,000 doctors to impliment our mandated health care scam , and then we will need you to work in a community of our choice until you pay it back"...after all as our king said "don't go to medical school to make money"
uhhh Cal...guess Hussein came up a little short (like most of his policy promises) as the highest honor is "Summa cum laude"...guess he should have done a little more studying and a little less hanging out with the "marxist professors"
oh , Cal
this priceless , Wikipedia has a chart that says that given the equivelent school degree of some other nations , our kings law degree (J.D) is NOT sufficient education to get a law license in any of the following:
Australia , Canada , Hong Kong , or Japan
really?...'fraid so
So we have the first Lawyer President and First Lady — who don’t actually have licenses to practice law.
Ever wonder why they spent thousands of dollars to receive their degrees to become lawyers and then surrendered their licensee???
“Voluntarily retired” & “Voluntarily Surrender” — what does that mean? Bill Clinton hung onto his law license until he was convicted of making a false statement in the Lewinsky case and had to “Voluntarily Surrender” his license too.
I could care less about Obama's grades or what courses he took. Even if he made bad grades, it might be because he is not good at taking tests, which often has nothing to do with how people perform on the job.
The issue for me is his lack of transparency. I would love it if anyone could provide me with one logical reason why Obama will not release his college information. I have never seen one, because there is only one. He has something to hide. With that one can only speculate it has nothing to do with his grades, but something on his college application.
Can't help but agree....rather than being interested in correcting a system that is flawed from the ground up (our education system from K- college) this is another attempt to take over another aspect of our society-control it, and those institutions that don't knuckle under to Obama's vision of America will suffer by resultant loss of support financially until they comply or die. Our kids do not leave grade school ready for high school by and large, and likewise, they are ill prepared for college, and even if they manage to finish college, they are not really capable of performing higher learning in the graduate arena. Eliminating occupations, programs....in favor of technical advancement....Great, we won't have any thinkers, just a bunch of automatons that can work computers and do the will of somebody else. I am surprised, the most liberal people I have met come from some of the various job categories that our president seems to feel are not as valued.....like media studies (which has given us the hard hitting, insightful, truthful, investigative news and commentary we have come to expect) or social workers (those who are trained to convince everyone that they have problems that they didn't know that they had and that the problems are always the fault of somebody else) It would seem that these categories would be essential to his voting base. And while we are talking technology...if we are slashing the military, and NASA....seems to me that we are putting a huge number of high techies out of work....and we can't channel them into the auto industry, or heavy equipment industry, because those are also being hammered because of their dependency on fossil fuels. They can't work to mine resources or drill for oil, because that isn't good for the environment ( I have never understood why we can't employ the brain trust to devise safe ways to do both things, but then I must be ignorant) We don't really need to build roads or infrastructure, because soon, nobody is going to afford cars or the gasoline to run them, and the government doesn't want us mobile anyway.....so, exactly where are we going to be using this crop of new high tech trained graduates???? Seems to me that we have a huge surplus in the unemployment lines already. One of the fastest ways to control a society is to have control over education, particularly higher education, which ceases to be education at that point and becomes indoctrination. And lets see, under Obama care, medical treatments and drugs will be rationed, so we don't need more doctors or pharmacists or radiologists or phlebotomists.....don't need any more of any of those, and besides, who will want to go through the effort, the time, the schooling, the internships and residency.....when all is said and done the government will tell you that you won't receive any more income than the guy who fixes your car, because after they have wiped out the insurance industry, they will be free to set fees and prices, because they will be the only game in town. Who is to decide what things are important to society? One man, the president, or the people that he appoints (and as such probably mirror his views) For good or ill, the higher education system has long been the last bastion of the dissenting voice in society. When things are wrong, it is the Universities and Colleges that are in the forefront of pointing out the problems...Anybody remember the 1960's....thinkers, philosphers, dissenters.....got the issue of Roe vs Wade to the Supreme Court, got us out of Viet Nam.....but that's OK for you liberals to forget that most of you learned your KumBayAh, let everyone live in harmony, "fair" ideas from your own higher education, and now that you are where you are, lets change all the rules for the next generation. Could it be that you don't want that next generation to be the one to point out the flaws and inconsistencies in your world?????
Baracalypse FOR education! Ha! Greece was just given more welfare and has to lower its debt to 120 percent of its gdp while us is already at that, AND SAILING WAAAY PAST IT! F in economics! Greece is rioting and the middle east is on fire and Baracalypse is clueless what to do. F in social studies! He keeps saying taxing the rich would give govt the money it needs, but even if the rich were taxed at 90 percent, it wouldnt EVEN BE 10 PERCENT OF OUR YEARLY DEFICIT! F IN MATH! He keeps catering to the global warming loons when scientists hade drilled 10,000 years worth of ice in the polar region and concluded we are in a normal weather cycle! F in science!
Where is his childhood friends, what were his grades, where is his passport, where is his moms passport, why is he friends with an unrepentent convicted terrorist, why did he go to a racist church that also preached communism, A PLUS FOR ENGINEERING SOCIAL ECONOMIC WARFARE AND MAKING AMERICA ASHAMED!
Ahhh, go ahead and collapse, truth hurts doesnt it! Debt man walkin!
What a quack you are, russ.
Only the ignorant still profess that global warming is a 'myth'. It is a fact that average global temperatures have risen by about a degree and a half since records have been kept. It is a fact that carbon dioxide is a greenhouse gas, and it is a fact that global carbon emissions have increased to nearly 10 billion metric tons per year from comparatively zero before the industrial revolution. Using all caps only makes you appear more ridiculous.
Anyway, here's another example of how the right have no interest in actually addressing any issues. They just want to rant and rave and hate. They hate anything Obama proposes or does, whether it aligns with republican ideals or not. Republicans whine and whine about entitlement reform (which IS desperately needed), but any time Obama makes a proposal to make a reform, which is what this is, then they cry that it is a 'power grab' and he's a 'communist'.
This is a proposal to reign in skyrocketing tuition costs, hold institutions accountable, and reform federal student loan programs. All good ideas; Perhaps the nuts and bolts of his proposal aren't perfect, but you won't see any repubs making a counter proposal. Only morons like these who keep clinging to the same old attacks.
When you attack others as "ignorant" because they express an opinion different from yours, it does not make you look brighter .... only intolerant. When you finish with a carpet-bombing assault "Only morons like these who keep clinging .... well, it puts you in the running for the daily Massengill Award.
and on the flip side to your intolerant coin their Jim is ignorant breeds more ignorance. Stop drinking the koolaid and get the facts.
bhart2000
Republicans whine and whine about entitlement reform (which IS desperately needed), but any time Obama makes a proposal to make a reform, which is what this is, then they cry that it is a 'power grab' and he's a 'communist'
So you are saying the republicans "whine". That is a hell of a lot better than an outright lie. A while back Paul Ryan attmepted to put forth a plan to make Medicare solvent for several more years. Keeping in mind that one of the earlier gurus of journalism (Marshall McLuhan) said the medium is the message, the democrats sent the message that Ryan was pushing grandma off a cliff.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGnE83A1Z4U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGnE83A1Z4U
Ha ha, nice try Jim.
Words like 'ignorant' and 'morons' hardly qualify as a 'carpet bombing assault', or intolerance. I'll take my chances and let the masses judge who gets the award today!
What you don't realize bhart, is that I created the award, only I know what it means and I decide who gets it ! Sorry to burst your bubble, but you have competition.... it looks like Devon has also put himself in the running.
I'll give you a hint though ... "inflammatory remarks and rhetoric" qualify for consideration as do attacks on others showing nothing to do with the article.
Everything I have read on this thread is an opinion or a theory.
The one fact that is listed is about the "10 billion metric tons of CO2" per year today versus 0 before the industrial revolution. Even this "fact" is not a "fact". the actual number varies between 5 billion and 30 billion for fossil fuel release depending on your source. The 0 number must not include the billions of metric tons released naturally (100 million/year alone for the small mount Kilauea volcano in Hawaii).
Regarding overall global warming, it is theory, not a fact.
Just getting the "facts" doesn't make you right or smart.
As with all politics, it is shades of gray.
I see this as Obama trying to seize control of yet another part of our lives. next thing you know, they'll be telling the institutions what courses to offer. it's part of his socialistic plan.
Russ-where exactly did you get your numbers??? I am not an accounting expert, but it seems to me that your making a pretty bold argument. I've heard the same things over and over and over again: "Even if we taxed the wealthy at (90%, 100%, etc), we'd wouldn't even make a dent in our deficit." First, I want to know whether you are talking about the debt or the deficit, because the debt is much larger. And if you are talking about the deficit, you and your fellow class-warfare instigating whiners on the right are DEAD wrong. Technically, the top 20% of Americans own approximately 93% of the financial income in America, including nearly 43% for the 1%. If we were to compare that to GDP, assuming America's GDP is rounded to $15 trillion, the top 20% of Americans own $13.95 trillion, with the top 1% owning approximately $6.405 trillion. If we taxed the 1% at about 40% of all of their income, the government would make approximately $2.56 trillion a year in financial taxes. Add customs duties, corporate income taxes, estate and gift taxes, and excise taxes, and the government could, in theory, balance the budget or at least significantly reduce the yearly deficit and that over 10 years. If we taxed them at 90% (never gonna happen, but if so), we would eliminate the deficit in a matter of months. So to all those right-wingers seeking to protect the wealthy from the IRS, don't say that taxing the wealthy won't do anything, because it will help A LOT.
Rick-Yes, Paul Ryan offered a plan to keep Medicare more solvent for a few more years. 11, to be exact. The problem is that is wasn't comprehensive long-term reform, or even an attempt at that. What it tried to do was privatize Medicare in 2022, giving seniors a voucher to pay for private insurance, and then letting them face the "free market" on their own. It wouldn't reform Medicare, but dump it off on the backs of future seniors. And the voucher system wasn't even indexed for the increase in healthcare costs; it was indexed for inflation. That means the voucher would go up 3% if inflation went up by 3%. Unfortunately, healthcare costs are jumping higher than 3%, so if the voucher size expanded by 30% in 10 years but healthcare costs jumped by about 50-60% (which is a reasonable guess), the voucher would have essentially lost 20-30% of its purchasing power. Basically, every year's new retirees would have to pay more for the exact same insurance plan that was issued the year before. That isn't fixing the problem; it is dumping the burden onto our nation's seniors.
armurray-Global warming is real, at least that is how I see it. You are free to not believe in global warming, but you can't argue that there is proof of it. I mean, how else can there be a damn ozone hole in Australia, or what else could the source of ice shelves in Antarctica melting??? And don't you think the heating up of the global temperature over the past 200 years has something to do with the Industrial Revolution and the use of fossil fuels that emit (literally) tons of carbon dioxide and particles into the air????
Dirt-Why is every time the government tries to help people for things like rising tuition and higher education it is branded as socialistic??? Obama is just trying to help alleviate the burden that our nation's college graduates and students are facing, with expensive tuition and large debts. I would most certainly advise taking away federal aid from colleges that are raising tuition without a good reason for doing so (increasing costs). I would even go further, investing more federal aid for schools as long as they keep tuition down and work to trim costs in other areas. I'd also offer more grants and loans for students and target some of them for technical jobs to get more degrees. The reason why companies like Apple aren't hiring here is because of rising costs AND a lack of technicians. If we increase the number of technicians while prices in other nations are going up, Apple will manufacture in America again.
OBAMA BIDEN 2012
This will kill the Republicans. They endorse dumbing up the nation to further their Anti american views.
Obama 2012
"Dumbing down" is what appears after your first two sentences.
This is merely Obama trying to distract from the real issues of the day. Well-educated college grads cannot find jobs today.
uaw, were the words too big in my post? What dont you understand about the communist in chief?
I do understand that you are as big an idiot as the rest of the Republicans on here and thanks for the laugh. Are you refering to the economy thats getting better without the Republicans Oh.... .ok they just don't go to the right to work states they leave that for the uneducated rednecks and the Republican blind
If the economy is getting better, it is doing so IN SPITE OF Obama's poor perforamance as POTUS !
Actually, I'd say it is getting better because the Republican Congress finally put the brakes on Obama's grand ideas!
uaw-779887
What you are saying would carry a little more weight if so many liberals did not post their facts that are not even close to the truth.
What are the issues? The ones that the incompetents in the opposition (which by the way is the only thing they know what to do - oppose) still cannot fixed, and which he is trying to fix from the previous dose of incompetents we have from 2000 till 2008? Jim, you are all rant and no substance, typical con...
I have developed a following of crazy Republican christians please do not ruin that for me
With gas over $5 in some places, unfortunately the economy will grind to a halt. His mismanagement of the middle east will doom him.
He's got us into 3 new conflicts with his eyes on 2 more. A bad experiment in lack of experience and judgement.
Having a reasonable conversation about higher education is impossible. There are too many people living within all the trappings of our modern civilization that do not want to understand that it comes from education.
I know a few college and university educators who have recently quit, without benefits, because of the way the institutions are turning away from education as the mission and more toward making money. Anyone who believes an on-line class is anything but a means to charge more for less is part of the problem. Universities are loading up with Administrators as they cut educational offerings. The administrators are putting increasing amounts onto the on-line format using the rationale that it is cheaper to present the classes on line. So, instead of interacting with experts...the students move through the paces of a canned education...not the most aspiring path for the US educational system. But at least the administrators are making money.
Even though Phoenix University has been charged with fraud because they are not delivering a useful product, more and more of our colleges are modeling after Phoenix. Too bad educational administrators are not taught how to educate. Too bad the uneducated administrators prevent educators from educating.
I fully agree.
The fact is that administrators don't care what a student majors in, or how long it takes to graduate, or if they graduate. Most adminstators are "bean counters" a student is butt in classrooms, and a body in the dorm ---- those equal $$$$$$. It is also why many universities are allowing fulltime faculty to retire or resign and replacing them with part-time faculty. These faculty cost less, but are also less invested in the university as a whole and usually less educated and/or experienced in their field.
James Reynolds: Are you referring to the University of Phoenix (instead of Phoenix University) in your post? Just curious...I do agree a lot with you that some institutions are more about making money and placing education second...some of these entities are publically held and therefore are accountable to stockholders. It's interesting also that Obama consistently speaks out against Big Oil and Big Pharma, but curiously not about Big Education.
Yes Juanita, thank you for the correction.
On the other hand, going to school say at, the University of Washington and for the first two years of that being in classes of 300- 1000 students per class and Professors who hardly speak English (that's right) and paying up to a $1000 each quarter for Books, online doesn't look so bad.
It's not until you reach your 3rd year at this very expensive University that you ever really get any one on one time with a Professor. It took me a total of 8 years to get my degree. I kept having to take time off to make enough money to pay for school.
America needs more education, it needs more Engineers, it needs more Scientists, it needs to compete in a Global economy. My father went to school on the GI bill. Basically free in the 1950s. Before Ronald Reagan was Governor. Tuition at the University of California for in state residents was $0.
Today, college students have to borrow virtually every dime and find themselves too often leaving the college with up to 200 thousand dollars of debt which they cannot be dismissed even by a bankruptcy judge.
I'm not sure if Obama's got the right solution but I for one am glad that he is talking about this problem. It doesn't matter if you are a Democrat or Republican, this is a major problem for this country and your children. Just because you hate Obama is no excuse for not seeing that affordable and a quality education is imperative for America.
Not everyone should be in college....the alarming rate of failure to complete is not a financial issue, but is an issue that follows people through their career life....Why didn't you finish? will be in the minds of interviewers for potential jobs and will hobble the job seeker. We need to show that career paths do not all require a University degree. We also need to go back to standards at all levels of the educational system-grade school and high school included- feel good promotions from one grade to another do no good, because eventually the gaps in ability, knowlege and expertise will catch up, and often when the individual is trying to make ends meet and support himself and perhaps a family and cannot make the grade in the real world of work. Learning to accept disappointment is part of growth and the human experience, as we don't all get everything we want in life. Learning to accept that we all have limitations with regard to our strengths and weaknesses is another skill as it gives rise to realistic career goals and expectations. Fact, most successful surgeons ironically enough are ambidexterous-meaning that they can use both left and right with equal ease....that is not true for the majority of people, as most of us cannot even manage to sign our name with other than our dominant hand. Making somebody go into the field of math when they truly just don't understand the relationships between numbers and numerical concepts is plain cruelty as not all our brains function in that way. The person so forced is going to be miserable and probably have worse self worth issues than if you allowed them to follow a path that utilized what they were naturally good at-perhaps language skills, personal interactive skills....One size will never fit all, and the notion that we can legislate fairness in our society and force everyone into one size is ludicrous and will just result in a new and politically acceptable form of discrimination...i.e. you cannot have higher education unless you are willing to go into the following fields.....(whatever is economically and politically expedient at the time) Used to be the reason that private schools commanded the tuition that they did was because they also delivered the goods consistently with graduation rates and success after graduation. But back in that day, they could also choose the most academically gifted and best students to begin with, and could reward those high achieving students with "merit scholarships" (which could be withdrawn if the student didn't perform well) EOE and affirmative action meant that we were more concerned about the numbers attending school than the outcomes of their attendance......that isn't progress for anyone, and it has resulted in a societal problem of the dumbing down of our entire educational system so that the students "can feel good" about themselves.
I have been saying fo long time that University should reduce cost by more than 50 %. Over last 30 years MBA's had done only one thing: Outsource work and make money by selling cheap products to USA. MBA long stopped creating entrepeuners. They are not producing even higher caliber graduates.
When the investment one makes cannot have results in terms of net revenue, then something is wrong with the process. We cannot compete with China and India where they can get as 85 % of our education. The 15 % loss is more than balanced by their hard work habit, burning ambition and entrepeunerial zeal.
At B.S. level it is just learning to find information and put togather to desired end. In age of computer most people learn this by the time they are teeager. It is refining of it and basic principles. It should not cost arm and leg.
I comes down to one thing like in our national politics and nation in general. We have lost our way. We do not know where our future is in the world where knowledge has become Universal. It seesm America is not ready to take leadership in tomorrows world.
Public Universities should be just that - PUBLIC. This means that the average person can afford to go there. The rich can keep the private universities to show off to their friends.
Ever heard of a community college?
Matt- Sounds a little like "let them eat cake".
Literacy has fallen off because these union teachers know they don't have to actually EDUCATE our children anymore.
They are protected by "tenure" even at the high school levels. Tenure was to protect college professors that taught "controversial" subjects. Now it just guarantees employment no matter how incompetent, lazy, or abusive a teacher is, all the way down to high school level. And the unions protect their dues paying members at all costs, including the cost of educating out children. (Like the head of the teacher's union said, "When children start payinig union dues, that's when I'll start representing the interests of school children.")
And that doesn't even count the fact that all over the past two decades we went from actually EDUCATING our children to instead indoctrinating them into some kind of "social" agenda where they teach our children that we are bad people because our nation is rich and powerful, that the "State" knows better than parents, and in the end, the government will take care of everything.
Better to condemn us for dropping 2 nukes in 1945, than it is to show that it saved not only a million allied lives, but millions of Japanese lives too. Better to hand out condoms to 12 year olds than it is to even attempt to show them that a little morality and self control would go a lot further in their lives. Better to haul children off for abortions without the parents ever knowing, but still need parental consent to hand out an aspirin. Better to take away a child's lunch in PRE-SCHOOL and force them to eat chicken nuggets than the turkey sandwich the child brought for lunch.
Better to teach "social justice" agendas and reliance on the government for EVERYTHING than it is to teach the Constitution and personal responsibility. Reading? Overblown, tweet and you have it covered. Writing? Copy and paste. Arithmetic? Use a calculator.
Why should children EVER have to really learn anything when it's so much easier to just let the unions protect you as you pass uneducated children on to the next grade where they'll be even more behind, collect your check and benefits, and prepare to pass the next uneducated class on?
What are you talking about Cheryl when you have parents that don't give a crap what curriculum their children will see in school. When the school budget is handled by the states and less money is put in education, to the point that the teacher have to make a 'wish list' to get supplies? And whose fault is that? Where are the parents demanding that the curriculum be changed if the classes or the teacher are not what the parent expected? I have two children in school age and I am a nightmare for their teachers as well as the school director. But I understand their limitations too. When the board sends them a book which they 'must' use, and that book is inaccurate, what do you do? They can't use their own judgement and toss it out because it is a piece of garbage. But it is so easy to blame it on the unions. I invite you to deal with a class of 40 children with budget limitations and limitations in the curriculum.
By the way, you want to go back and impose religion in classes? Over my dead body missy... keep your lies in your house. My taxes are not to be support your house of lies.
Social Justice? Missy, please read the Constitution and the Supreme Court decisions supporting 'social justice' instead of calling its name without even knowing it.
And if you have to rely only on the education your children receive in school without making your part, then you are a sorry excuse of a parent. Do not be surprised when your daughter comes pregnant or your son ends up in jail or in the morgue. It will be easy for you to point the finger somewhere else, it saves times and allows you to elude your responsibility.
Oh, I forgot that people like you rather have an illiterate nation to an educated one. It is so difficult when educated people questions its authorities...
justiceforall-2038290
You're rhetoric sure doesn't seem to match your name.
Define social justice.
It must be election time. Obama is just full of hot air. How about getting rid of tenure for a start?
Another "Race to No Where" ?
I believe that the federal government should stay out of the business of education. One of Obama's first acts was a direct government takeover of student loans. Does Obama believe that the federal takeover of student loans helps the situation?
Easy access to unlimited student loans helps to drive the problem. When universities have no push-back on their rates, why not increase tuition? If student loans worked like they do in the private sector, students should have to justify their loans by demonstrating good grades and degree programs that will provide them a good chance at earning enough to pay back the investor (you and me - the taxpayers).
Just because Obama decided using the credit card to prop up the economy doesn't mean that it will work to prop up his base of teachers unions profits through student loan "credit cards".
armurray when the federal govt took over the student loan program it was one of the best things for the govt and student, for years banks were taking taxpayer money and loaning it to students and taking their cut without any risk to themselves. This was increasing the student borrowing costs by billions, of course the bank yelled when their easy money was taken away and the politicians who were in the banks pockets yelled the loudest. Its just a part of getting the costs down but its a start.
And the government made it better? I currently pay loans for my daughters' educations. They were switched directly to the government a couple of years ago per the new laws.
2 months ago, they changed their computer system and guess what, they couldn't receive any money for over a month. They sent extra bills even though accounts were set up for automatic payment. I was told I was late for my payment by a letter through the mail and given a number to call. When I called, there was an automated message stating that their new system did not work properly and they would not count any payments as late.
Although I was happy to hold on to my money for an extra month, I'd like to know how much interest was lost in this snafu. This wouldn't have happened with a bank.
Government at it's finest.
Hello....Obama.... "It's the economy Stupid!"
Obama is asking "what do THEY get for their money"? Doesn't he mean "what do they get with OUR money"? After all, he's trying to make college free for everyone, isn't he? What a joke, on the taxpayers back. I already put my daughters through college, I absolutely refuse to pay for Pedro and Chaquita, just because their illegal parents only make $10 an hour. They shouldn't even be here!
DaveD
What a racist bigot you are.
You are the epitome of what's wrong with the Republican party. A bunch of selfish, ignorant, bastards.
If there were really a God that existed...the one from the Bible....you would burn in hell.
VIPP,
How do you get by with such a personal attack in your post ? If a conservative was to use your verbage, he would be banned for a week !
I also am putting my kids through school and am taking PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY for their education.
Vipp, typical Far Left doorknob comment,
Disagree with you guys and you start crying "racist bigot". Grow up Vipp. Try to climb out of La La land and face reality. You're rhetoric is really getting old.
Dave: So Chaquita and Pedro can work for you at $ 2 an hour?
It's the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT who gives these unversities the money they need to run it so why shouldn't they have a say in the way they want education to be given ladies and gentlemen. As the person said above in one of the post if they don't want the federal government adivising it GO PRIVATE!!! Plus the President is listening to employers who say that it's not we don't have jobs out here we don't have students with the right education for these jobs so why not try to steer community colleges and universities to provide the education that's going to help students graduate with the jobs for tomorrow. i don't see the hardline of the government should stay out of stuff when it comes to helping us grow as nation ladies and gentlemen. Again like i say my opinion.
Should MasterCard be able to tell you what you can buy? Should MasterCard be able to tell vendors what they can sell you? In terms of college education, the federal government is just one big MasterCard.
"Public" universities typically have state charters and are subdivisions of the state in which they are located. They are usually run by some kind of state board (the Board of Regents, usually), that reports to the governor, the legislature, or both. As a matter of separation of powers under federalist principles, the national government (Washington) should not be telling state governments how to run their colleges and universities. They are owned and operated by the states. Washington has increasingly been providing funding through aid to students or student loans. Washington can condition what the students who receive such aid do. But Washington should not be telling the institutions themselves what to do.
"Private" institutions are privately owned and operated. However, they also accept students who pay with federal aid. But, again, Washington can't tell the private universities what to do, either. They can only place conditions on the recipient of the aid, which is the student.
JeffereyB,
The taxpayers, through our broken, inane government, have been pouring money into education like there is no tomorrow. Are you happy with the results? If you say yes, I'm surprised you can read this post. Well I'm not happy. This government has proved it can only run one thing effectively.....and that is....run up the deficit. Our education system, which was once the best in the world, is now as ineffective as the Post Office and DMV. The only ones getting enriched are the teachers and administrators, whom, not surprisingly, can't even be fired. Your government in action
The federal government being involved in education starts with the evaluation of what the purpose of our government is. Do we intend to have a government that lifts up the poor, or one which only supports the wealthy ? Do we want to make it possible for everyone to succeed, or only for the wealthy ?
As to your argument, ask any businessman if their banker asks questions about what is being done with the money they lend. The US government, as the lender, has every right to make sure that if it is lending the money, that the students are graduating and eventualling finding jobs to pay back the loans.
Chris Mastercard expects to be payed back but may times the federal govt isnt because students are getting education that is worthless. Shouldnt the govt expect a return on its money just like Mastercard, but more to the fact shouldnt students also?
You just gave a good example of why the federal government should NOT be involved in student loans ... ".... Mastercard expects to be payed back but many times the federal government isn't....". So, our government is giving away money with no expectations of repayment ? Solyndra anyone .... loans secured by visits to the White House (and campaign contributions) for a company with a "going concern" letter issued by their independent CPA's ??????
Is it any wonder our national debt is over $15.3 trillion and rising faster than flood waters ????????????
Federal aid is the problem. For 3+ decades the higher education system has been awash in federal aid, grant money and government-backed student loans. All this money has had an inflationary effect. The cost of a four year degree has risen every year for the last thirty-five years at a rate greater than inflation. It is madness to expect students to afford tuition (and their loan payments after graduation) when they are buying a service from a market that doesn't play by the rules of the broader economy. Bubbles tend to pop. When they do, everyone gets wet.
Chris - you have absolutely nailed it.
Please also note the high instances of admittance of foreign exchange students into US campuses. Demand from the rest of the world for the finite number of seats available at US universities also ups the ante and raises the demand past the nascent demand in the US alone.
But that's not to say that federal subsidization isn't a driving issue. Particularly with regard to the fact that schools have not only raised tuition ahead of inflation, they've also by-and-large increased the required number of units for students to graduate. Supplier-induced-demand for sure (just like a crooked auto mechanic prescribing more service than you actually need). Compound this with the fact that the government doesn't discriminate between majors when it comes to subsidizing tuition and you further see colleges charging the same ridiculously high tuition for someone majoring in Drama or Women's Studies as someone majoring in Engineering or Business.
Clearly job-market demand is not playing a role in this, otherwise the majors that don't often lead to gainful employment would be far cheaper than those that do...and schools would devote more capacity to the lucrative majors rather than allocate vast amounts of resources away from the sciences and business so that they can stock the pond with a brigade of sociology and poli-sci majors.
I suggest that we only subsidize tuition up to 1.5x the median annual income of the entry-level position that such a major most frequently enters into.
Some of the money may be better spent helping Companies in the US hire and train employee's. Not everyone is meant to go to College. Over the next 20 years as manufacturing jobs return from China because of higher labor and transportation costs the Country will need more skilled labor. A lot of Companies in China are also sick of their technology being stolen by the Chinese. The Chinese gov is already raising wages for laborers because they fear the masses. The lower class there see a few getting rich while the masses still wallow in poverty. They have to bring more people into the middle class to avoid unrest. The shift has already started.
Thinking that everyone should go to college is in the same family of idiotic ideas that brought us the housing bubble.
Not everyone should go to college. Yes, it may be elitist, but the belief that anyone can be brought up to collegiate levels has brought colleges down to everyone's level. Look at the parallel of the housing market:
The belief that everyone should own a house, regardless of the ability to pay, inflated, then devalued homes, and buried many in debt.
The belief that everyone should go to college, regardless of academic ability, will devalue college degrees, and bury many in debt.
Gotta agree with you there. A BIG reason we are in this mess. Need more trade schools.
I have twin boys age 19. One studied hard in high school, took a challenging curriculum, got scholarship money and is in the Honors Program at the University. The other used every excuse under the sun for not studying, scraped through high school and is now training to be an automotive technician ... doing quite well now that he is studying something he truly loves. The "other one" will probably have a job before the first one does.
College is not FOR everyone. Furthermore, it is not up to the federal government to pay for it or to CONTOL IT !
Jim...Agree with most. Not everyone is college material. My son ended up with a GED. Applied to a local community college after too many dead end jobs. He always read a lot and is smart but no common sense. He is working in Subway and going to the community college on a pell grant and some student loans. He is on the Deans list 3.76GPA and now studies and actually enjoys school. Takes all science and math courses and no fluff. He could not afford College on what he makes and figures his future job will help him pay for future education after the Community College. Right now he needs the Pell Grant to make ends meet.
A mind is a terrible thing to waste.
Jim,
I tend to agree with the "College is not for everyone"...statement.
However, what you fail to see or understand is that there are plenty of low income students that are bright and want to attend college but simply can't afford it. College is outrageously expensive even for those who can afford to attend....but if you would rather we have a society that simply answers to those with money then so be it. But I for one want the best for those who want the best....even if they are impoverished.
You simply want the government to pay for everything. My parents made many personal sacrifices, lived frugally and their goals were to make sure they could put their kids through school and get college diplomas, at least. It's a parent's responsibility, not the federal government's.
You espouse the "cradle to grave" nanny syndrome where big government is to "take care of everybody".
Vipp,
That's what student loans were created for. Once these kids graduate from College and get a good job, they are expected to be responsible by paying the money back. Their are grants and scholarships for the truly needy and even they should reimburse, to benefit the next generation. College shouldn't be a free ride. It's like anything in this world, if you pay for it and work hard for it, it means something. This President wants to wave trillions in student loans. Why?
Jim + Dave,
First Jim....I just happen to understand the plight of those who find there selves in poverty in today's society. Not every parent, no matter how hard they work, can come close to satisfying the financial obligation that colleges now insist. Believe it or not there are families who operate on 1 low paying income and there are children within those homes that have the desire and talents to go to college. Jim, because you have problem seeing past yourself and the experiences that you have gone through it's harder for you to understand those in much different situations.
Dave,
"This President wants to wave trillions in student loans. Why?"....Dave, it's actually an effort to level the playing field a bit. Because college tuition has sky rocketed and those who grow up in better situations (i.e. wealthier homes) are far less effected by those costs Obama's plan to further wave these loans helps those of lower incomes rise to the next income bracket. That's good for our society considering that the wealth gap between the rich and poor has widen at historic levels.
Take me for example....low income kid. I made it through school but now face $500 a month of student loan payments. Was it worth it for me to go to school...yes and no. I have to use my degree to obviously get a higher paying job but the higher paying job all but offsets what I would make if I hadn't gone to school at all.
Get it?
Matt-3468366
Looking at the number of PhDs around here I am beginning to wonder about the value myself.
Vipp,
No, I don't get it because, as usual, you make no sense. You responded to my post, but blathered on about you. Typical. I can't believe that you think it is my responsibility to pay for your $500 a month student loan. I can almost gaurantee you that I had less than you did, when I attended college. I spent 4 years washing dishes and cleaning floors. I don't, for one second, believe it was anyone else's responsibility to pay for any of my college. I think the comparison between you and I is a good example of the difference between Democrat's and Republicans>
VIPP,
Both of my parents grew up relatively "poor". They managed to do pretty well without government intervention, loans and handouts. Even when this thing called "World War II" got in the way, they still kept their eyes on their goals. So, I have no problem at all seeing past my experiences. My parents were "dedicated tightwads" and my dad used this expression to describe himself many times during his life.
This is the land of opportunity. Some believe you have to EARN that opportunity. Then again, others like you believe it should be provide for you because you exist.
Um, Jim really doesn't have twin boys - he is full of it.
Phyllis: how do you know that Jim doesn't have twin boys? Are you or were you once married to Jim? or do you somehow know Jim as an acquaintance? You say he's "full of it"...full of what Phyllis? Next time, stick to the topic Phyllis or I'll make fun of you again.
@Phyll-of-it,
Congratulations, the "toothless wonder" speaks again. Not only do I have twins, but I also have a daughter in high school. Now let's see if you can find something ugly to say about her.
Thanks juanita, she's just trying to attack and discredit something without knowing what she is talking about.
Booo Hoooo. I had student loans and I ate tuna and mac and cheese until they were paid off. I didn't have new clothes unless I got a Christmas or birthday present. I lived in a very modest place and still had to struggle to cover rent. I didn't buy a new car until the student loans were completely paid off and didn't buy a home until after that. Graduates have to understand that a college degree is not a ticket for a McMansion with a Mercedes-even if you can command a better salary for the education, you still have to work.
What isn't this numbnut "President" trying to get the Federal Government involved in? What's next Barack? Let's see auto industry - check, healthcare - check, education - check, finance/banking - check, manufacturing - check, utilities - check, communications - check, consumer protection - check. Where does it freakin' end with this administration? Protect the damn borders, provide security for the nation and follow the Constitution.
January 2013 - End of a Major Error in US History
Juice. The government has been involved in all of the above for decades. This is not new. No child left behind. The Auto bailout started with Junior. TARP....ect....
Juiceisgood,
FYI....the government has been involved in education and higher education for years....well before Obama.
I know trying to weave this into the OBAMA AND THE GOVERNMENT ARE TAKING CONTROL OF EVERYTHING narrative...but this time you make no sense.
Great comment Juice ! With Obama, it's all about GROWING government at every opportunity.
Big Corporations are crying because there is not enough skilled and educated people out there to fill openings. Let them pay their fair share of taxes and use that towards better education for our youth. After all a better educated workforce will buy more of their products.
Who decides what is fair ? Obama ??
I hate to burst your bubble, but with elctions less than 9 months away, your fearless leader is now doing the "crawdad" move and talking about LOWERING corporate taxes ! He could be the poster boy for Waffle House !!
When they suggest leaving it up to the states, have they looked at Texas? State university tuition has spiraled up and up since Perry deregulated it. Also, the kid is on the six year plan because he can't get the classes he needs. Example: Three of the upper-level classes he needs to graduate are only offered in one semester, and they are offered at the same time. They offer classes that require professor approval for entrance. He begs his advisor to get in. The advisor says to email the professor, who never writes back. He goes back to the advisor who says to write the professor, but refuses to contact said professor and ask what's going on. The class is cancelled because of lack of enrollment, and he can't get into another class at the last minute because they're all full.
It's more than just costs. It's bureaucratic inefficiency that would make Douglas Adams spin in his grave.
The kid just made senior this semester, but he won't be able to graduate until next spring because of how and when classes are offered.
Obama doesn't give a Dam about education...GAS prices...Debts...
After returning from 3 days in California Partying with the millionaire Celebs (Now *91 fundraisers*)....he and his Amazon Wife are having a blowout "Blues Celebration Party" at the White House tonight! They just can't STOP partying...Motown, Country Music, ALL Sports teams........ANY excuse will do! For Sure, she will have on one of her $2,000 DESIGNER Dresses....J.Crew was ONLY for the first 6 months in office!!!!!!
Party.....Vacation.......Campaign.....while WE are getting RAPED at the Gas pumps!
While Iran, Isreal, Syria, etc. are SERIOUS problems!
The MOST Selfish President in HISTORY!!!!!
He is *desperate* to win Another term so that they can Travel and Party for FOUR MORE YEARS!
Patty,
It's obvious you hate Obama....but trying to blame him for things that are out of his control just isn't fair.
Let's recap here.....Bush vacationed...and vacationed a lot. Bush campaigned for money....a lot. Bush partied....a lot. What did Bush do when gas prices soared to over $4 dollars....nothing.
Did you call him selfish?
"VIPP"
Just like your IDOL.....you are delusional !
Apparently you ENJOY watching him party with the Millionaires and Celebs while average Americans (me and You) work hard and struggle to put gas in our cars...which he totally IGNORES!
Good for you ...lucky guy, if you don't need gas in your car!
Patty,
Again....you would have to be an idiot to not understand that ALL presidents have to campaign and go to events to raise money. Are you that delusional that you think Obama is the first to go to millionaire parties to fund raise?
I don't think it's right that our Presidents/politicians fund raise with millionaires but THEY ALL DO!!!!!
Obama doesn't ignore these problems....what are you talking about?
I need gas in my car too but I don't blame Obama or Bush for the spike in gas prices. If you understood why they go up you probably wouldn't be putting blame on Obama. With the instability in the middle east (i.e. Iran) gas prices are rising....combine that with speculators buying up oil in anticipation of something going down in the middle east and you have a huge spike in gas. Is that Obama's fault that Iran is pushing the global community? In fact, if you want to blame someone you should blame the Bush administration for taking out Saddam Hussein who was the counter balance to Iran. Iraq and Iran were enemies and neither would have let each other pursue nuclear weapons. Once Saddam was ousted Iran was able to freely develop such technology without fear.
So...please...educate yourself on the matter.
VIPP,
Your last sentence truly DRIPS with arrogance ! Let me guess... you call yourself a "progressive" and look down upon anyone with ideas different from yours, anyone showing common sense. You have no knowledge of Patty's level of education.
Jim,
Of course not....I don't look down to others. I'm actually quite the opposite.
It's funny because you acknowledge and write that I have no idea the level of education of Patty...and you type in a way that indicates that I shouldn't assume such things...yet you try to label me as an arrogant, progressive, intolerant person.
Jim, so I say to you....you have no knowledge of my level of tolerance and thoughtfulness.
When you tell someone to "educate themself" then you "reveal yourself".
When you label and judge someone as arrogant, and intolerant when you have never met the person....you reveal yourself.
And for the record....I told Patty to educate herself on the matter. I didn't say that she was somehow stupid or ignorant just that she obviously hadn't done her research on the particular subject at hand.
Vipp
You would have to be a total ass to imply that someone is a total idiot when you don't even know them.
VIPP,
As a writer with reasonably well recognized language skills, I can see this thing called "TONE" when I see it. Sometimes, I see it in my own writing and have to "soften it" a bit or "polish" for clarity. Your tone does show arrogance and I called you on it.
The article is about Obama's actions in furthering HIS concepts of how education should be "controlled" in this country. Obama has already influenced enough "control" and his remarks are where your comments should be directed.
Of course, if you are merely an Obama leg humper, you probably think his every utterance is golden.
Oh Jim you truly are a verbal genius, do you eat bile each morning to have such a sunny disposition?
As expected, a "one-liner" from you of no value, having nothing to do with the story.
Part of the problem with rising tuition is financial aid and student loans are too generous. Colleges take what the typical family can afford and then tack on all the other possible sources of money and set their tuition rates accordingly. So not only does the family starve itself to death putting the kids through college, the kids amass a ton of debt too.
Both private and public colleges have become more like country clubs than educational institutions. They've added a lot of expensive amenities to attract students, but somebody has to pay for it all. Golf courses, climbing walls, hot tubs, huge recreational pools, luxury dorms, etc. What happened to just giving them a quality education?
I went to a private college 30 years ago that cost $5,000 a year, or about 10% of my father's annual income at the time. Today that same college costs almost $60,000 a year. Unfortunately, how many families have $600,000 coming in for college to be only 10% of the annual household income? Further, when I graduated from college, my first year's salary was more than the entire 4 years of school cost. To have that happen today, college graduates would have to land $200,000+ a year jobs. Not going to happen. This whole system is WAY out of whack. No wonder students are forced to bury themselves (and maybe their parents) in debt. Not to mention the return on investment used to be acceptable. That's not the case today. As much as I'm for people getting at least a 4 year degree, I'm wondering whether the cost makes it worth it. Especially private schools. State schools are the better deal today, and even those are pricey.
Today, in honor of Black History month, Obama announced the formation of "African-Americans for Obama".
There you go, the guy that said he was going to unite America. What a joke. He is further dividing America. Give him another Pinocchio.
What if Romney, came out and said he was forming White Americans for Romney. There would be a revolt by blacks, saying "that's racist".
Why is there such a double standard?
Please vote Obama out in 2012. His goal is to tear this country apart with class warfare, and he is doing just that, with the ultimate goal of a more socialist or, better yet for him, a communist system.
Meanwhile, literacy among college students has declined in the last decade, according to a commission convened during the George W. Bush administration that said American higher education has become "increasingly risk-averse, at times self-satisfied, and unduly expensive." About 40 percent of college students at four-year schools aren't graduating, and in two-year programs, only about 40 percent of students graduate or transfer, according to the policy and analysis group College Measures.
College drop-outs are expensive, and not just for the individual. About a fifth of full-time students who enroll at a community college do not return for a second year, costing taxpayers hundreds of millions of dollars annually, according to an analysis released last fall by the American Institutes for Research.
Looks like affirmitive action has cost taxpayers alot!
Conrad--How you made the leap from college drop-out rates to affirmative action is beyond knowing. You don't know the race of the students who drop out, do you? If you have a college degree, you are a living example of colleges being unable to produce individuals capable of critical thinking.
Conrad, I am in college and I see students of all races who should not be in college. It's not affirmative action that has caused this issue, but the greed that has corrupted higher education. Every time the Pell grant or loan limits increase, the schools start yelling about tuition increases. You can set your watch by it. I hate to say it, but I would like to see an end to those limits being raised for now. I would also like to see tougher entrance standards enforced if students are applying for a Pell grant or scholarship.
Oh and yes, let me know when White History Month is, or Chinese History, American Indian History, Italian History, Japanese History, Indian History, German History, etc. etc....
What about one year certificate at public vocational
schools. Teach In demand field like medical assistant and computer repair tech
that will put you above the poverty level and then you might consider
continuing to 2-year certificate like RP nurse and computer networking tech
that will pay twice or three times more.
You will qualify for Student loan and financial aid
Requirement is to pass TABE test,
basic math and English level depending of choice of major. The problem is 30
percent don’t graduate from high school and will not pass; fifty percent don’t
have a college degree
Tougher entrance standards would go a long way to curb the money wasted on students who should not be in college. In my freshman year, I sat in amazement as students could not distinguish the difference between : where, we're, were and ware! My freshman year had classes jammed full. Now in my fourth year, the classes are half the size. I can only wonder how many of those drop outs will never pay back their loans and how much Pell money was wasted.
I cannot lay all the blame on the students or their parents. We have college recruiters who knowingly put these kids in programs they are not capable of completing. We have an educational system that would loan an 18 year old kid 50-100k.
An imperative for every American household..
This man needs to be sent back to his permanent position as 2nd assistant dog catcher at the Cook County dogpound..